The fact that the Bush administration released prisoners from Gitmo who assisted in the training in the panty bomber you find as a smoking gun that this is really a Bush plot, yet by your own previous admission, many more prisoners would have been released under your/democratic administration. Either try them in a court or let ‘em go right? In fact, you gave quite a stirring defense of Bush’s policy:

“You can’t just hold people without cause forever.. Cheney/Bush of all people proved that.. they had to release a lot of innocents that were scooped up in this process.. and that’s the part you ignore, if even the most feared of all ’sheriffs’ in the ‘wild west’ Dick Cheney couldn’t find reason to hold someone, when even he had to acquiesce that hey, some of the people are innocent, if even he, who could hold anyone, for any thing, for any amount of time decided some people were actual innocents and must be released.. then how can you say “nope, hold them all indefinitely and let God sort them out””

Cheney would be so proud to hear you defending him!

And the visa. You don’t seem to be making an argument that a Democratic administration in 2008 would have known better than to give this guy a visa. That would hardly be a plausible scenario since a democratic administration, warned by the guy’s own father that he was a radical didn’t get his visa lifted.

And you say I’m partisan! Ha!

To me, your smoking guns are shooting blanks. I didn’t bring up a blame the administration game, you did. And your “proof”, was, yes, full of shit.

And now you are mad at me for not joining in your pointless exercise. I know that as far as you’re concerned, all terrorist attacks, past and future, are Bush’s fault. But hey, news flash from the real world: Sometimes, it just isn’t about Bush. You comment on a really ridiculous theory about this is all Bush’s fault, and then when I show you the gigantic holes in your story, call me partisan.

I assume this Christmas bombing: Bush’s fault must be really popular on your leftie blogs, but it doesn’t change the fact that for the dumbest of luck, we almost has a passenger liner blown up over Detroit and you are trying to figure out how to blame Bush for it. The keys to stopping this were not in the Bush administration’s hands, they were in the current administration’s hands. They dropped the ball, something even they finally admitted, but you are charging ahead ignoring that in your attack of Bush.

See, to me this is a sign of your ideological blinders, not mine.

I’m not interested in blaming Obama for the Christmas bomber. I’m interested in getting the problem fixed, making the country safer, and getting his head in the game; something that I think (and hope) is happening, albeit belatedly. If the administration doesn’t get this right, we all suffer, but you go ahead and cover for their mistakes, blame Bush for this attack, and the next ones, and all subsequent attacks from now on, and just ignore the threat that radical Islam poses to us. I hope someday you will realize that it’s a greater threat than Bush.

“…and lets stop right here.. ‘tribunals’.. we both know what a person will go thru once they get in there.. we know what being called an ‘enemy combatant’ will force them to endure.. they are not under the Geneva convention rules remember.. 30hr interrogations,stress positions,right-up-to-the-line torture interrogation techniques.. you know this, but for whatever reason you’ve decide to ignore that this is also what your enemy combatants get to look forward to besides not having their Miranda rights read to them.. you know this, stop pretending otherwise.. and stop coming after me for reminding you of this…”

Virtually everything in the above statement is factually inaccurate. We are no longer doing waterboarding, stress positions, or anything like that. All of the current interrogation is right out of the Army’s field manual, just like you wanted. So why are you still trying to pretend we are operating Gestapo HQ in Gitmo? Of course, this is all irrelevant if you don’t think having a status of enemy combatant, or indefinite detention is legal. Of course if you are saying that, the Obama administration begs to differ, since they have already decided to keep that and conduct military tribunals for certain enemy combatants. So, which is it? Either everything the Obama administration is now doing with regards to enemy combatants is illegal, and Obama should be tried for war crimes right besides Bush, or … it’s not illegal. In which case, why are you so opposed to enemy combatant status for the panty bomber or any other terrorist we manage to grab?

Your attacks of partisanship against me ring rather hollow, when I’ve been consistent throughout in my positions, but your positions seem firmly based on the political party of the administration in question. Partisan much?

No

well then stop deflecting from it with the incessant “Oh it’s Bush’s fault”..Yes, it is his fault and you admit it! so stop acting like I’m full of shit when I point it out… I’m sorry the (R) president and VP did so many things that you didn’t like, I’m sorry that they did more things everyone hated, I’m sorry that we are still feeling the effect of their actions.. and most of all I’m sorry that your pride is hurt when you are reminded, but that doesn’t negate that YES! Some times, a lot of times it is his fault!

But you use that like it some kind of debate tool..it’s your crutch anymore… like you don’t have to acknowledge it, prove it,disprove it.. and since you use it when you do agree and when you don’t agree.. it’s a non-position..

If you and the rest of the GOP could just swallow that pride for once and acknowledge what you already agree on and stop penalizing those who will acknowledge what you won’t.. we could actually move on from Bush.. It’s this denial game ya all play, that keeps it going. Don’t you understand the D party isn’t the party that forces you to grovel when you are wrong.. we’re the ones who live and let live.. Just because that is the rules you guys play by, doesn’t mean we do.. so when you put up this front that even when you know he was wrong, even when you agree with the person pointing out, but that they are the one who are part of some conspiracy… it’s bullshit.. and then to say “well lets see how you like it” and pull everything out of your collective asses to throw at Obama in the hopes that it will erase Bush’s failure, the same way you did with Clinton.. is 4th grade petty..

my position has always been try them.. !OMG how bad of a position for me to be in..! You can’t just hold people without cause forever.. Cheney/Bush of all people proved that.. they had to release a lot of innocents that were scooped up in this process.. and that’s the part you ignore, if even the most feared of all ’sheriffs’ in the ‘wild west’ Dick Cheney couldn’t find reason to hold someone, when even he had to acquiesce that hey, some of the people are innocent, if even he, who could hold anyone, for any thing, for any amount of time decided some people were actual innocents and must be released.. then how can you say “nope, hold them all indefinitely and let God sort them out”

and lets stop right here.. ‘tribunals’.. we both know what a person will go thru once they get in there.. we know what being called an ‘enemy combatant’ will force them to endure.. they are not under the Geneva convention rules remember.. 30hr interrogations,stress positions,right-up-to-the-line torture interrogation techniques.. you know this, but for whatever reason you’ve decide to ignore that this is also what your enemy combatants get to look forward to besides not having their Miranda rights read to them.. you know this, stop pretending otherwise.. and stop coming after me for reminding you of this..

sometimes innocents do get caught up in something.. sometimes a neighbor who owns a guy a goat and doesn’t want to pay him that goat, makes up a story that he’s working for terrorists… what about those guys Mike? the ones who are unequivocally innocent? why do you want to hold them indefinitely? and doesn’t doing so create that which we are fighting? Those are who I am talking about.. I obviously don’t mean OBL and those like him.. I’m talking about the truly innocent ones.. they are never in your or the GOP equation.. and it’s bullshit that you make my voice for them out to be the voice for OBL and KSM.. it’s another false and bullshit tactic that you,Gordo and the rest of GOP employ.. same thing with this idea that you’re only one on the side of freedom.. if you want to continue labeling me so black and white then you will have an open enemy before long..

the “OBL’s” and “KSM’s” that can’t be tried in court because either their cases are so damaged by illegal techniques or we absolutely know they are guilty but can’t find a shred of actionable proof to try them.. those should be held indefinitely if not taken out and a bullet put into their head once their usefulness is through.. I can distinguish between the two types of people.. why can’t you? and why can’t you let me?

You promote this idea like you’re the only one on the side of Freedom, well that comes with a responsibly of following the law even when you don’t like to..if we are fighting a nation who has no laws because they have no laws.. then how are we any different from them when we skirt the law or outright break it? If we are fighting an ‘insurgency’ that doesn’t distinguish the innocent from the infidelity.. then how are we better when we don’t either? You guys ignore that, you don’t address it and you mock anyone who brings it up.. and to be honest.. I’m a little sick of it.

I’m pretty sure you don’t acknowledge anything Obama does without your tongue firmly planted in your cheek or with such a dismissive and condescending attitude that it looks more like an insult than compliment.. You may think today Bush went soft, and I’ll gloss over this new to-the-end-of-his-term-when it-was-en vogue-for-the-GOP-to-throw-the-guy-under-the-bus revelation.. but if you thought he was tough before and if Obama is doing exactly and even more in most cases than the tough sheriff did, then how can you still find fault and insult when the only thing he doesn’t do is your favorite thing to mock, torture.. Gitmo is still open, Bagram is still going strong, enemy combatants are still being held,missiles are still flying, more money is being funneled to help the military fight, more men have been given to the military.. the single thing that is not the same is torturing people.. so when you and your GOP complain that Obama is throwing out that which ‘worked’..since he’s not the one who started trying terrorists in civil court or Miranda them.. you are arguing for torture.. since it’s the only thing of Bushs he’s thrown out!

huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. why in the hell do I bother…

look, I apologize for what I said in the last reply.. I don’t take it back because it’s how I feel, but I do apologize for saying it. .. there was a time when you’d debate something, when there was some kind of hope that you would see the other side,recognize and acknowledge it’s legitimacy , when you wouldn’t put people in the ‘all or nothing’ category.. when, if you agreed you’d say so in instead of rolling your eyes and saying catch phrases like “Oh it’s Bush’s fault”.. there was a time when you were weren’t a closed door with a sign on the outside that said “NO!” I refuse to see anything other than my ideology”..and I think that time is dead.. and true to form you either will not or cannot see the difference in anything I’ve said.. so at this point.. why bother saying anything?

No

Am I saying that AbdulMutallab didn’t get his visa during the Bush administration?

No

But you were the one who was trying to play partisan on this issue, not me. I’ve said many times that Bush/Cheney went soft on those guys. My position has consistently been that all those guys should be kept until cessation of hostilities. And we are not even near the half way point on that!
Your position? You’ve consistently opposed the status of enemy combatant and wanted those prisoners either tried in civilian courts or released. So how would things have been different under the Bush administration rather than an ekg administration? You would have let even more people go; the majority of them actually. So I’m not sure where you get your partisan tic mark on that issue.
The visa? We both know in 2008 if there had been a Democratic administration in power, AbdulMutallab would have still gotten his visa. What would have been the reason to deny it in 2008? I can’t imagine a Democratic administration denying him a visa in 2008 since even after receiving intelligence that he was a radical in 2009 they didn’t pull his visa.

“‘oh sure, it’s Bush’s fault’ .. when sorry but, yes it was.. but it’s your defense response to make the person who is pointing out another screw up feel like maybe they are picking on the guy…”

You love the partisan blame game, and then get offended when someone contradicts it. If you don’t want to be called on it, don’t do it.

As far as your question, “why is it always torture with you?” Uh, go back and check the title of your blog. You brought it up.

“No torture, no waterboard,no stress positions,no violation of human rights or our own laws… and he’s actually talking and without a military tribunal to boot!”
“But to answer your question on who is asking for Bush’s old policies, that policy being torture”

I didn’t pull the topic out of thin air, I pulled it out of your blog.

That’s the strawman you are trying to set up. Your false choice is either to treat terrorists as criminal defendants with all the rights and privileges of our system, or…
TORTURE!

“How about acknowledging the others ‘wins’ Obama’s given this country to keep it safe.. ya know the increased missile strikes, the increased deaths/capture of terrorist”

I’m pretty sure I have acknowledged that on the muche. I’m glad that we are killing terrorists. Three cheers for President Obama for killing terrorists! I mean, I do approve of that policy and have no problem saying so, but your blog topic is about an aspect of his policy that I totally disagree with and have also said so, and will continue to do so. And that policy? To treat terrorists as criminal defendants and hope we get lucky and can get family to get them to cooperate in spite of advice of counsel and a right to remain silent. So we are going to give them the right to remain silent from the git go and then hope we can offer a juicy enough carrot to sweet talk them into betraying a cause they were willing to die for. It actually seems to have worked this time, but as a policy, I suspect this is going to be a disappointment.

What happened to my 1st Amendment rights???

Oh. I forgot. They were bought out by a big corporation.

Pfft! It’s not like he hasn’t heard it before!

please tell me who it was then..

ok fine.. take Padilla out… now you only have 300 more to use as examples.. damnitman!

why is it always about torture with you? You are the ‘black and white’ ‘all/or nothing’ person here, not me…I mentioned quite a few things.. even military tribunals and Miranda rights.. and yet like “it’s bush’s fault’ you always default back to torture..

it’s interesting.. psychologically speaking.. you deflect truth when confronted with it with a condescending ‘oh sure, it’s Bush’s fault’ .. when sorry but, yes it was.. but it’s your defense response to make the person who is pointing out another screw up feel like maybe they are picking on the guy..

but that’s not the interesting part, the interesting part is the ‘torture’ bit.. that must have really damaged you in some way to always default to that..

btw,I didn’t bring it up, Sam did with his ‘go jack bauer on his ass’ quote.. but you skipped over that and go after me for replying to the torture question.. Well, I guess Bush’s use of torture is such a sore spot with you that instead of renouncing him for it, you attack anyone who talks about it..

But to answer your question on who is asking for Bush’s old policies, that policy being torture since it’s the only thing Obama doesn’t do…that would be Sen. McConnell..

“Again and again, the administration’s approach has been to announce a new policy or to change an existing one based not on a careful study of the facts, but as a way of conspicuously distancing itself from the policies of the past — even ones that worked,” McConnell said. “In short, it has too often put symbolism over security.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/32464.html#ixzz0eiOkPl5Z

he’s oh so pissed that Obama would dare to change policies.. even ones that worked… even tho he hasn’t.. well, he doesn’t torture anymore.. that’s the only thing he’s changed..

You just can’t stop for one second and be proud of your president and country.. not with this president in office. you take every chance you can to knock every accomplishment down a peg.. it’s a sickness with you and Gordo and people like you..

How about acknowledging the others ‘wins’ Obama’s given this country to keep it safe.. ya know the increased missile strikes, the increased deaths/capture of terrorist, the increased pentagon budget.. why do you incessantly knock your president down even when he’s doing a better job than you and your GOP prophesied that he would.. and not surprisingly doing it better than you guys did..are you that afraid of him getting any credit for anything good? are you that afraid of the American people might actually see him as he is and not how you make him out to be?

Let’s hope the terrorist don’t listen to you, the GOP and especially McConnell.. because to listen to al of you we are weaklings deserving to be attacked.. it’s almost like you are baiting and begging them to attack..like that would prove something to you. It wouldn’t ya know.. prove anything to you. It would just kill Americans and hurt this country even more and even longer.. but it wouldn’t prove anything to you because you already believe Obama is dangerous,weak and incapable of leading us.. but it would make you feel better I’m sure..

how bizarre..

anyway, I see it now. no matter when or where it will be Obama’s fault… you can’t even take the direct and undisputed link from the Bush admin to the Christmas day bombing and find any fault with him whatsoever..

your denial of this almost didn’t even make me angry.. there was a little ‘tinge’ of anger there.. whew! because when the anger is gone the only thing left for you is indifference and pity.. and while I don’t mind feeling that way about the total ideologues like Dick and Iceman.. I will regret feeling that way about you.. but if you can’t even admit Bush’s actions in the lead-up to AbdulMutallab.. then I don’t know how much more you and I have to talk about

I actually found your comments the most interesting part of your blog:

he got his Visa from the Bush administration.. so if they really want to point fingers.. there is a direct fucking line from the Bush admin to a terrorist attempt..

I mean seriously.. if there was that much of a straight, direct..
Bush+A+B+C=terrorist attempt

Again, it’s Bush’s fault!

An Padilla is not exactly an equivalent example. Padilla is a US citizen. Not exactly the same situation as AbdulMutallab.

Now,whats with the strawman argument about torture? No one has been arguing that AbdulMutallab be torured, but you seem to be setting that up as a either or situation. Either we torture him, or we get his family to make him cooperate.

Or that classifying him as an enemy combatant is the same as torture.

I’m glad that the administration, and thereby the country, had the dumb luck to have a terrorist who is actually influenced by his family to cooperate. That is a very lucky break, but you seem to want to set anti-terrorism policy on lucky breaks. How many terrorists would this actually work on?

Whatever this is, it’s not a “regular” interrogation tactic.

I hope we continue to have the kind of crazy luck that has a bomb fail to go off, and a terrorist bomber being influenced by family to cooperate. Churchill said, God protects fools, drunks, and the United States of America.” It looks like the Obama administration intends to keep God plenty busy in protecting us, since we decided to forgo that option ourselves.

I suspect the current “model” will create far more respect for our country than a fictional character on a Fox TV show.

*ekg edit–play nice Howie*

Ayman al-Zawahri
Bin Laden
Saad Bin Laden
Saif Saif al-Din al-Ansari al-Adel

you want me to prove/disprove your made up “fantasy”?

are you serious?

Gordo, just say it doesn’t matter what Obama does you’ll always be on the side against him and you will always be on the side that calls him a danger to the safety of the US

seriously, I don’t know who their family is, what their relationship to their family is.. what would be the motivating factor in making them talk since I’m not an interogation expert, I only listen to what the expect tell me and thats that Obama’s way is working and working well from the sounds of the singing coming from Abdulmutallab .. btw, he’s the one telling us of the impending attack that you want me to say whether should torture OBL to get info about..

you’re ridiculous you know that.. we are in the process of your fantasy right now, learning about an impending attack, and we’re learning about it using ‘regular’ interrogation tactics.. but I suppose that’s not good enough for you.. you want more blood, more vengeance.. fine, I said go for it, put it to a vote and I might vote with you on it..but if you want to know something from a person, the intel experts say that torture doesn’t work.. *shrug*

and seriously, that you would ask “what family members will help elicit information” from your list of people..being that there is no way on the planet me and pretty much everyone else in the world with the exception of about 7-10 people would know, is flat out insane..

please troll somewhere else Gordo..